Carrie, welcome back to The prospecting show. Today is July 30th, and we are on with Doctor Victoria Mattingly. How are you?


I’m good. How are you today? Very good. So before the call, we started talking a little bit about your background and how you started your own company, and you’ve had a lot of experience before that, but you started your company in a current time… That is crazy. This is like… Nobody seen this from an economic standpoint, from a social… On rest standpoint, there’s a lot of things going on the healthcare sector with everything with Cove, so maybe to start things off, let’s go backwards a couple of years and talk about where you started from and how you went through the dock in your doctorate program and where you got to today.


Yeah, absolutely. So I have a lot of empathy for current graduates at right now trying to get a job whenever the market as like this Collin, just the kindest Affairs ’cause I graduated with my undergrad in 2000 with it. Our next most recent economic difference can and how that is not the best time to be doing at the actor’s degree in psychology, and so I was bartending a fancy for Portland, Oregon, and I was like, If I’m gonna… To Barton, with my Bachelor’s degree, I’m gonna least make much mind doing it, so I’m working at this bar and two industrial organizational psychology just walk into my bar and tell me what they’re in town doing, which was essentially trying to improve the employee satisfaction and commitment and loyalty to this current standing hospital.


Yeah, because there was a fence.


I spoke up down the street and they don’t wanna lose their Le, their staff to use a hospital, so let me get the street, we weren’t being paid, making a good living walking through the front door to make the lives of the employees better, the executives are hiring make their employees lives better. What is this field? I met up cause I just, I see such a need for…


I worked in ERs and she reports, you and my husband’s a shop, and not just one sector, but work is stressful and it’s hard, and as long as there’s people involved, there’s always gonna be untested because of these interpersonal relations, even just go back to restaurants. I had dump customers, crazy core, there’s horrible bosses, and there were only serve tools or training around just like take a, B, Take a deep braunsch.


So if your self… If you second, if you beyond your oral levels in your body and then be less stress, but no one teaches me things, so that’s what really led me to go down that path. And you go to grad school and get my PhD in Organizational Psychology.


Yeah, I’m just If super privileged and grateful that I get to now do this work, Sisense ally in living and seeing the need for it.


Yeah, and so when you talk about the organizational psychology in your mind, how does that differ from what maybe other people just see psychology as there’s a lot of people to go through general sciences and they do y100. I did that before I went in, became a chiropractor early, early on it was… Everyone took y100, doesn’t matter what kind of science you were doing, that was just like a standard informed introductory course, so how does what you do differ being in the organizational space than what most people think psychology is… Yeah, absolutely, especially a great question because I do not analyze people, I’m not trained as a therapist, a counselor of any sort, I have no leather Chase loud in my office or people come and lie at and tell me the role that it’s nothing to do with my job, I have so much respect, and I think everyone should have their person… We all have no doctors if, if we’re late, which is another conversation in… That’s Anisotropy counseling. Anything really one-on-one. And when it comes to mental health, like a… That that should be done by a specialist. And the doctor that’s on rites. However, I do, I do do coaching and so that it’s one-on-one conversations, but this varies and are at so or with the client now, and their company is starting their diversity but inclusion or D and E traversal. And so how do you build that council leaders who gonna push this out, what should be evidence-based and Science back metrics and matters that we should go for a or Boson.


And so I… We talk one-on-one, but it’s very specific around so… And there’s lines stuff have doing D and I working a app to have a gross mindset and you have to have resilience because I… It is incremental progress with really heavy and loaded topics, but also look at the capacity for real, the one I eat like I feel like this more generally making world a better place and you have to have the grit and the flexibility to pull it off, and so I do coach around how, but most of my work is really at the group and organizational level, so… Organizational assessment.


So how do you know that… Do you have the US a culture, a workplace? And so I can go in and measure that using survey or poll survey or the thing I interviews and focus groups, different things like that, and then also the poorer small group levels, I love to the workshops and I really focus on behavior change and training and learning the development that’s my vehicle through which I do this work to see those D and outcomes and to see these more interpersonal data dating humans together or sort out… That’s a lot of differences that we think you see very many therapists going in facilitating coarse or doing online, be in art and ritual training to around is more business-oriented topics, and I like to think a therapy or set a psychologist and that that we are counseling the islet, they have that depth of impact with each individual person they work with, and you can really get… Change people’s lives.


I have breath, so I don’t think I’m gonna… Really, who knows with the… I should work to make maybe a little bit, but on the broad level, I’m not gonna be cheating in either mental illnesses or the decks of work at psychotic, the noble psychologists do, but I can have a broad and pack… And if I can make the experience of work just like a little better, it’s a little better, then that’s a win, ’cause we spend a lot of… Most adults been most of waking hours at work, and so if I can help make it a little more tolerable, even more enjoyable at times like… Yeah, no, and that’s really interesting, you kind of bring up those points because I think this diversity and inclusion type sub-category is fairly new in the light of politics, it’s something that’s became more to the forefront. People are realizing like, Hey, now we’re gonna actually have a department or a person responsible for this, we’re gonna actually consider some of these diversity and inclusion topics going forward in the business, whereas maybe you roll back… Probably even as early as 10 years, it was like, What is that, right?


That it wasn’t recognized as something, like you say, worth doing, it wasn’t something that they were regularly doing, so what kind of things do you think have changed 10 years, 20 years in the past, up to now, what is… Change has made this become something that is actually addressed… Yeah, I think one big driving factor, the generational shift in the workplace, millennials, we tend to… And this is, of course, everyone isn’t had to flee, but on average, millennials tend to want and request and expect, not just this sort only deep at a but flexible work practice that I would argue is under Denis, it’s what we give are close to help them.Bringing their best selves to work in sometimes that means having the flexibility to not have to come to work every day because you’re a parent or you… It’s just easier to be to not have to community of this and… But millennials want this and they want it, they want the affinity groups, and they wanna feel like they have a place for their unique selves at work and with like-minded people and self-groups, but genes demanding it. Gene’s in the way that a rumor to our parents generation had techs and retirement plans and these data companies for life, that’s on.


And I think what’s got replaces is feeling like you’re doing meaningful work and that your Vala and you’re seen and you’re respected and heard in one, bring your best self to work every day, and I’m not saying people just really, really just do what they want, or… But just having… Just feeling like that you belong at a place and you’re doing work that matters, and you know you’re a respected person in your team, in your company, it is so powerful and that’s what keeps people around and it’s… It’s not money. I know for a fact, people take lesser pay job because they were… Oh, jobs, that let them be the best human that they’d wanna be a half a life if they want… And that’s worth it. And so I think up in part to the question, it’s competitive advantage into, especially for trying to get top talent and on your talent, and that’s really popular text base, ’cause at the end of the day with technicians so quickly that a lot of tech companies… The model is yet, people rate out of college and get the most out of or then burn and turn to get the next… Keep the managers and pick their sales, and it’s not pretty, but there is this talent acquisition is competitive aspect to getting on talent and Dani is a proven way to get the… Compete in that space. So that’s one, I think another reason is look at our societal and spa right now, look at what the murder of George Floyd erupted, and that was all right under the surface, ready to poor.


So, and now that time has come and hearing, hearing right now being compared a lot to people who experience the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s and how very similar things are happy or mid-major… There is a hit and what used to be inappropriate or off-topic or have in the workplace talking about things like sexism, that changes me too, that was just a four years ago and now brassica, but I now very tentative.


They think there is… They would hope them to be. But they still… It’s significant, right? It’s solid of where we’re at, we have comes explicitly talking about how they’re being enters and investing in that, and it’s because of where we are in a society and… And this will always… So 240 or right around there is expected that white won longer be the majority race in America, and that’s fascinating. And so diversity is no longer in this thing either, but one…


I didn’t get the best out of it as I… It’s interesting because I think that’s one of those topics or one of those services that are… It’s hard to measure the short term, I think with some of the stuff that you’re doing, right, obviously you can come and and be like, Okay, this is the bill for the services, and these are the things you implement on a technical level or a very like transactional level, but I think the other part that’s really, really interesting is like What’s the long-term impact? What’s the midterm impact? Right, next five.


It says, that’s probably where your work is going to shine the most, because you need to turn over, like you say, from the early stage employees to the people that are in management, the Management took the upper management, Alper management to executives. You gotta have that flow up the chain to be able to have that change actually made, so in your mind, been about… You see the most change right now, so we talked about some of these social issues like George Floyd and some of these other external from work topics. What are you seeing has been most the number one internal issue with businesses right now from this diversity inclusion at Title I work in…


I think the answer really depends on where the companies are at on their D And I journey, and so one major chain-up scene or companies that did not previously invest in time and our date resources people into D and I are not starting to… For the first time, and it’s 2 ’cause I feel like those companies then get Popo brother cruse that have been doing it for 10 years, but it’s like… But it’s still so significant that the outwash different strategic goals and how they can actually put it embedded in the business in the way that it’s not just living in HR. And so I think that’s the next change I’m seeing is it’s finally coming out of HR where of course, Nitin are very oily.


There’s a lot of the people work and hiring sue, what’s the best way to see more diverse or company higher… Whatever scale it is, these are complicated answers there, but it’s a lot of time, as you mentioned, a lot of this and like current systems to allow for outcome, that system for Bill for I’ve done at work at the gender space and the modern office voting, corporate life was not built with a love in mind, and that’s not to be an insult to me business and just there were women to build that culture in oradea because of that, and so… But I going, Okay, so the answer is, we’ll build a gender-inclusive work place or I was a worker that we can earn it all down and certain state, actually under Apple that. So yes, seeing companies part of that role is no longer just has a… With DEI. Because to really see those changes, you see it, you have to put the work throughout the business and throughout all areas, and it’s more a… Yes, it’s hiring in its training, and it’s the education, but it’s also how all business operates with vendors, are you hiring… Are you investing in a workforce that matches the Democrats in the customer take a isotopes that do the…


I reintegrated at every level, and so I’m seeing more companies that maybe are early in the journey are now putting… Da in the business and the more strategic way. And they’re gonna see better outcomes as a result, I say those are two big changes and shifts, I’m seeing that, but just a lot more energy, momentum, and I think… I think… And I hope that he is no longer a… As the term, in fact, 10 years, it’s gonna be a Herbert… If you all talk about telemann learning development, disston A be like part of how companies work and if you not have a market part or a… So the older how we can be successful about marketing in or the Ashanti I the… And I have a… Or businesses who are considering this, there’s a lot of people that have never had this kind of service, you’re never really gone down that pathway. How does someone like that justify the investment, both from a time standpoint and operation standpoint, in a financial standpoint to do this kind of work?


He talked about marketing, right? Marketing is like, Hey, with the X number of dollars in, we try to get an ROI that comes out here.


How do you measure… How do you suggest people measure going forward, adding these types of things to their business given that there is a cost associated with doing them in doing the right the… So one thing from research and what you can see in case study with various people who do the companies that do dearth, you have higher attention grades, and so any good company would know what their typical cost on average cost has to hire rehire, so that only… That last time, and then we would have to board so many really, really start seeing an ROI, it’s all lost. So some costs for the first three months or we’re learning the company, the training, everything, and so that added plus whatever recruitment efforts have to go with the higher person, there’s a very significant cost, ECT, figures as high as three times that person’s salary that you lost and so if more, if inclusive workplace is lead to a higher retention grade, then you just do the math by Casper higher. So that’s one way we have a rib, as you mentioned before, either a long-term measures and to see the most immediate impact eels, the way to do process you, the way to see me at, how much value are people getting out of the D-I program? You can assess a really quick, no, only just reaction, ’cause you get them usually just in the like the rose up there saying where they entertained, did they feel like they had a good time? And that really doesn’t get out of comes that companies care about, that translate to dollar signs, and in one way, I try to get a proxy for this is, are you gonna use what you learn by What percent do you see doing some of important… Essential at your job, because of something. I learn from this and there’s costs that, right. So There’s clever ways you can go, but no one’s doing that calculation, and I think we just don’t want to because it’s easy to in a say, Oh, doesn’t fit with the business and whatever color it… I’m around business owner trying to get a business off the ground and the your 22 will be a story for the study, the test and such empathy is for entrepreneurs right now, but all these di-budgets just dried up and Lois, one of the first in… Cause it was due, not by all come to by a lot of companies, is this extra nice to have a thing?


But no, it’s been fast in seeing all these budgets open up and all these new deals, practitioners, the ever sit officers, you getting hired in, the budgets are now there, and so I think it’s gonna be less and less reactive because it… As I always talked about before, it becoming more of necessity, and yeah, I just try to help the client see that I treated to the end like that, but it’s hard when you can’t say diversity, Eisenhower, the sales… Also just kind of done… We have, and I have a different companies and one of them really focuses in on business development and sales, and that’s one of the things that everybody asks is like, What is this going to do Friday my top line, what’s it gonna do for my profitability or what’s it gonna do to my bottom line, right, those are kinda like the three things, they don’t ask it quite that way, but that’s what they’re thinking, right, if I hire this person, it makes me more money, they’re… Yes, there’s an expense, but there’s a profit. Right, and so a lot of these decisions that I’m seeing people make are very financial, especially like you said, at the peak of CO, but it was very much so, we have X amount of money, and now we have less than X amount of money. Where do we spend that? Is it on labor as non-diversity, is it on… Systems is like No Zoo and through the roof as a tool that is now necessary for the workplace, and I don’t know what the exact numbers are, but I would imagine that Zoom us is probably up like three to four times. It’s crazy, but in their platform is something that has been on a… People know about it, people are taking the value of it, but it just hasn’t been adopted until it was forced to doctorate, you can’t come we… You got to work from home.


So do you see a time in the future here, How do people change and how do people get into… Seeing that this is important, I think people realize it’s important. I think the problem now is maybe justifying cost is maybe where the people get hung up with it, so what in your mind, you talked about some of the ROI metrics and the ways that you give to help businesses, but do you think more companies are gonna do it… And involve themselves with the first day inclusion, or do you think more companies are willing to spend money… What kind of trends are you seeing now that we’re kinda coming out of COBIT, A, they see me more spending in general, I’ve seen a lot more hiring internal position, so not only just Chief Diversity Officer, but records of diversity I president level reporting, either direct CEO, which I would argue is even better than reporting into CR, but embedding people high up in the organization, this work… Oh, I’m definitely seeing it. I’ve seen it out for… In the area of particularly the detract toner externally, who are people, people of color, black speakers, clitoris, I think that’s the name.


And I’m optimistic that we’re just gonna continue, I think particularly for the first point, if company are high-end is in our roles, they would need vendors, they’re gonna need support, or they’re gonna grow their team underneath that internally or… We saw the and the current landscape and it’s invest this corporate commitment to anti-racism and Ashley in the workplace, in the sphere of influence. And yeah, I would be shocked if that just… Just a Peter expenses.


Yeah, no, absolutely. So to kinda wrap everything together and I finish it up, ’cause I like to keep tips, it’s fairly short.


Talk a little bit about who your ideal customer is, so the people who listen to the podcast, they can have a good idea of who that is, and then tell us how we can reach you… Right, phone number, email website, some way that people can reach out to you if they’re interested in kind of having a conversation about how they can implement your skill set into their business.


Yeah, absolutely. So my annual customer are just into small simony to Moses enterprise that are investing in Den and they wanna use metrics and evidence-based experience to build up these solutions, so whether it’s coming up with the strategy as picking out how… How does one that’s concluding at the organization, I really wanna… They get some data behind what should be done and also some of those solutions as well, so… And the big one is, is anything with Alonso a lot with all ship training, so solutions for my customer, anyone you’re looking to get some extra help and support around important crucial D-D I were doing internally at this time, so I think in touch with me is on my website, getting these solutions to local, and then you also, please, I love connecting on LinkedIn, I would be pretty active on there, so that’s Victoria, matting, the tech in a affect, any time I love chatting about diversity, equity inclusion is really my passion. And it’s so it’s the type of work is worth doing, so they got better plans anyway.


Yeah, so thank you so much for coming on the show. I think this is probably one of the most unique episodes, and the fact that what you’re doing is not something that there’s tons of people doing the right, it’s a very specific, very focused, very niche, if you would… And I think as time goes on, we’ll probably look back at the show and be like, Okay, yeah, there’s no people doing this in two… Three years, right?


And so I appreciate you coming on very early adopter, really pivoting in this time and moving through, and you have a new skill set that people are definitely gonna be using with these businesses that they continue to grow. So thank you so much for coming on to the show, and I’m really looking forward to hearing the feedback and listeners, thanks for having me.

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