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No, today is July 2nd, and we have Richard AP on the call. How are you?


I’m fantastic. Connor, thank you. foraging me, Peter, to catch up again. As always.


Yeah, yeah, so for the people who listen to show, I always start off and say there’s really three parts, there’s the past, present and future, and to give some color around that, maybe tell us where you came from and kinda your background up to today, and how you got to where you’re at right now.


Yeah, absolutely. So born and raised, Western Pennsylvania, a little more than an hour north of Pittsburgh, I’ve been around here all my life, so I started professionally going to community college, got my Associates in message from there, I started two ventures on, I started a small practice brews starting to try with people’s homes and 12 passes providing therapeutic massage. I’ve been doing that for about a decade now. And then I also spent two and a half years running a large massage therapy projects outside of the city of Pittsburgh, so they also focused on getting in with law firms, getting in with accounting firms and providing therapeutic massage to some of your way collar workers from there I went back to continue my education, got my bachelor’s in psychology and my master’s in higher education and college counseling, a National Counseling Certificate. And from there, I’m doing a variety of things. I would suppose I’m a good example of the gig economy, so right now I have a part-time position with broad Marsh University, I’m in charge of their sports division, so this year will be the first year that they’re offering scholarships to students to compete in their competitive gaming teams, so I’m taking the administrative and coaching lead on that front. I have my massage therapy practice, which I’ve again, been working for about a decade, and then I also do some work with a content production within the game space. I work with a couple of close friends on making video and article Productions for a very local trading card game, and just that eclectic mironov experiences has been really fulfilling for me. We also dive into real estate, have a rental unit. And a bit of everything, yeah.


And it’s interesting, you say, kind of the gig economy, that’s kind of the future with everything going on here with the covid and people realizing, Hey, you can work from home, you can… You zoom, you can do all these different jobs, you can split your time, you can do fractional work, you can do a million different things. So let’s talk briefly. One of the popular copies on the prospecting show is like this multi-source revenue model and real estate teams to come up. I just did an upset days ago, we report it, and it was about real estate as well.


So briefly touch on what got you into that, so that you’re doing all these other things, you’re falling cash on, you have the business side, you got the healthcare side, you got in the position you’re in, and then you go and grab a piece of real estate, so how do you do that?


Yeah, absolutely. Laser short, I kinda got into house hacking without knowing at the time, that was the thing. I knew that I was pushing money away looking at rent every month, and my wife and I on… Say at the time, we knew that we needed to do something about that.


So we decided the most affordable way was purchased a duplex, live in half of it and ran out the other half, and that is exactly what we did for three and a half, four years now, and then actually at the beginning of the year… Right before 2020 hit, we moved into a new location just a few miles away from where we were, and it’s a cool space because I’m also able to start offering home massage for some of my clients that aren’t able to travel, but from there, we decided that the passive income made a lot of sense, why… I think one of the best ways to overcome everything that’s going on is by being adaptable, but by being flexible and by being affluent in many different things, kind of Ren is on style. And real estate seems to be one very reliable way of income, because regardless of what the economic status is, people need somewhere to live, so that’s really where we’re putting our efforts into, my wife is working and go to real estate license right now, and we’re looking for or to say what? grows from it.


Yeah, and so when you guys decided to do the duplex, right, did you… You moved in, you have a renter on the other side of it, you buy the duplex, you fill out the mortgage, you actually take on the debt and that really the asset, which is the liability to come until it becomes the asset, but none of the last year you take on the property and then it starts flowing because… You have a renter in there.


When did you decide to… Not… You move out of there now, is that correct?


Correct, so now you have two people in there, or that one is just supporting both sides… Exactly, yeah, and doing some strategic purchases that’s support not only all the cases I see with that doing, but a lot of our current living expenses, so the hope is required one or two more buildings like that, and we should be able to… If somebody doesn’t wanna work for a bit, be able to have that flexibility, it does last this again go. Yeah, it’s like the OG hustle there to be able to kinda get all the different pieces in place, so let’s talk it… I don’t wanna get too much down there at the real estate a whole, but this is kind of interesting because you’ve done this right in the middle of covid, THERE’S A LOT OF PEOPLE ON traction, people are like, Oh, 2020, crazy year, but you still made this transition so what are you seeing, where do you see the opportunities between now and the end of the year were some of the stuff that you’re doing in the real estate space, you know, it’s very, very difficult, ’cause right now, I think that we’re hitting record low interest rates right now, so if you’re looking to purchase a residential home, you can do so for very little money, we’re almost getting to a point where inflation and interest rates are almost one to one, which is absurd, which means in the grand scheme of things, you’re federally not boring money considering 10 years from now, your money is not gonna be worth what it was, so if you’re able to find an opportunity for a place that you can live in that’s able to generate revenue, either an apartment with a business below it were duplex, I think anywhere in the residential space, so due triplex flex, I think these are fantastic investments, that being said… Because of the low interest rates. It’s also very, very competitive. Is it something you need to do your due diligence with? There’s a lot of resources online, and at the end of the day, it’s a field that… Education only gets you so far, and you really have to find some mentors, really have to find some… Do your own digging, do your own research to find what path makes sense for you based on the amount of work that you wanna do, be the amount of starting income that you have, and see the amount of time that you have to do that hustle as you describe it.


Yeah, and so is there any kind of anxiety or stress around taking on a property that’s more than just what you would live in, so like what… Someone who buys our first new places or triplex or couple or whatever it is, you’re essentially having… I know you have one mortgage, but it’s like you’re taking on four living spaces, and so you have the responsibility of, Hey, we gotta get somebody into this living space, or else now you’re paying for the whole thing yourself. Right, so any tips or tricks around that, any ideas as to what people should do, webcast, that’s probably the part the whole… Most people back, it’s like, Oh well, I’m gonna buy this codex and I don’t know, I’m gonna fill the other three locations.


I think there’s a dangerous assumption that people make that whenever you buy a unit like that, it’s been… Back to the matter is that it really is. And as long as you’re working with someone that’s remote, the ethical, you should be able to get confirmations of leases in place, you should be able to confirmation of pay history for rents, and when you look at it from that front, you should be able to confirm that you can receive income fairly reliably at the end of the day, it really matters what kind of environment that you’re in, most spaces kinda put you on this ABCD tear list for a neighborhood. We’re an eight-year would be somewhere you live lectures, be somewhere you live comfortably, see it somewhere where you would live if you need to, and D would be your middle of urban city, really scary like Ironmen and a B and even higher parts of C… All those tears tend to have decent to reliable income, so really looking at the neighborhood that you’re in, being familiar with the neighborhood and asking yourself what kind of position are the people that live here working, and then ask yourself How much is covid impacting those types of positions, yeah, and that’s actually a great point, ’cause I guess that is a false Santino really in the real estate space. In that way, I’m certainly educated on some of the methods, but not to the actual purchase of a duplex triplex Coflex, but your point is valid, if people are already there, you already have all the least place, you know what the flow is because you know the total revenues that are coming in, do you have a rough idea of the mortgage plus accounting for whatever your expense calculation is, I guess you can reliably purchase this property knowing that it’s gonna be okay, right? They might miss a rent payment or something that you can call that you can really control that, but the risk tolerance is pretty low, what is it like from your experience when you go to the bank and you’re like, Hey, I wanna buy codex, do they wanna see that kind of information like, Hey, we already have rent for artistes in place. Does that help you leverage for a mortgage in that particular case, yeah.


So in a safe by safe basis, as long as the unit is not commercial and it doesn’t have five or more units, you should be able to apply for a traditional standard 30 year, 15 year fixed rate mortgage. They’re not an basing it off of your income, but they’re basing it off of the perspective income for the other units that you get without living in it, and even if something like is going on in 2020 would be a hindrance to that. It’s also very likely because you’re living in the residents that you would qualify for some of the red delays and some of the mortgage forgiveness that the government is offering right now… Interesting, go. There’s some safeguards in place. And do you recommend… This is probably an obvious answer, but do you recommend that people open up some type of LLC and basically restructure that those rental properties outside of their personal assets so that they’re protected from a liability standpoint and a financial standpoint, or what are your recommendations there?


Yeah, so that is something that we have been doing a lot due diligence on, and of course, being nowhere near a lawyer, I cannot give any firm advisement to anyone, but in general, it seems to depend on the state, and there’s generally two methods, One is you get a LLC linearity, or you get an umbrella insurance coverage, and it seems like depending on the state that you developed the loc at, it can protect you better or worse in other states.


So historically, I’ve heard states like Nevada and Delaware tend to be great for building llcs just for various reasons, how hard are you in is to bring the corporate fail, but that’s really something you need to do diligence on and talk to a local attorney, if that’s the space that you’re going into, spending half an hour and I were on attorney fees to answer some of these questions as well, worth the hassle of what happens to somebody accidentally trips and breaks their leg at your rental… It’s not funny, but it’s gonna wants… You look at America and you look at all the things that are going on, that’s definitely a concern for people, there’s so much litigation right now going on either in the supply side or… I’m just on the healthcare side. It’s crazy, but switching gears out of the real estate, let’s talk a little bit about your message background, so what made you wanna get into that, and then maybe talk about how that’s transitioned over to… It sounds like it’s changed over the last few years… Yeah, a little bit. And to be fully transparent, the original interest of it was just I wanted to do something that made a little bit more than flipping burgers while I was getting through college, you’re with a group of friends, you come with, come up behind somebody and rub their shoulders and for 13 seconds or the greatest person in the world, that was the inspiration for wanting to go into it, and I went into it knowing I would like it, and came out knowing that I would love in all of the different things that I do. Well, I was doing my master’s program. I was a career coach, I was supporting students and their resumes, cover letters, professional development, through all the game coaching that I’m doing, even through real estate, and it all kinda has the central theme of How do I support people in their individual success? That is what brings me a lot of internal reward, a lot of intrinsic motivation, and at the end of the day, massage therapy is another way to do that by supporting people in how they function through the day and how they get by, when I have found one because I’m a male in a space that is primarily a female-driven, and two, because of my natural professional demeanor, I suppose, for lack of a better word, I have found that working in more of a corporate space has been where I’ve really succeeded, where I’ve thrived, so by offering the people the comfort coming to their homes and by working especially in nursing carers and Healthcare Facilities tend to be where I do a lot of my corporate events at, it’s a really cool opportunity to engage with individuals and what I love from a business perspective, it’s a little more able to be delegated at the end of day, if I wanna sell my business to somebody else, not success, if I just have a whole bunch of home clients is directly contingent on how well those clients respond to the therapist and picks up my practice, but if I’m doing corporate work and if I’m doing these tarmac events that come once a month or once a quarter or once a year, it’s less about me and it’s more about the service, which means that I can outsource that and I can collaborate with other practitioners to make that business model successful, so also thinking about it from a scaling perspective, that seems to make the most sense for me, ’cause at the end of the day… Well, I love massage, the average there is only hands-on 10 to 15 hours a week, or I’m sorry, 15 to 20 hours a week, and then you do it for seven to 10 years, so making sure that you balance yourself physically and decide on how to scale that appropriately, I think it’s a formula for success in that space.


Yeah, and I think it’s interesting in me coming from the chiropractic background, you have in a massage background, it’s the same thing, the scalability comes down to whether you have a personality and department practice, or if you have a business-dependent practice or a service-based practice, talk about… And you took a one step further and talk about instead of this one-to-one relationship of HAI provider over here, patient over here relationship, it’s more about one to many, if I can go from the provider to the business, and the business has… All the people that shoot off from it, now the sun, you’re B2B transaction that’s occurring instead of a million individual business to consumer transactions. Right, exactly, exactly. And that’s a model that you can scale in perpetuity, which… Exactly, and it’s not operate dependent too… That’s the other part, right? It’s not as I like to your point, it’s not as dependent on necessarily your… They’re buying the service, not necessarily the individual… We’re in that babies to consumer space, it’s really like, Oh, I need to see Jim or I need to see… You get that kind of problem there, and that’s why you look at a lot of chiropractic practices, and even probably a massage therapy practice is probably the same thing, the valuation of sale, a lot of times is very hard to calculate because it’s like, what is the equity in the business, what is the actual physical goods that are being depreciated, what are the act… What’s the building work? And then what the practice actually worth, the thing you can’t touch, and that’s a super hard thing to put a value on, because if they all come to you because you’re you and somebody takes over in the practice, 90% of the leaves… Well, there’s not as much value there, right, so what you’re doing and building that up in the corporate space, I think that that’s gonna have a more long-term solidified value that you’re not gonna be able to get in a private practice, but… Would you agree with that?


100%. You know, Jim Collins says is well and good to great when he says, find the right people, then get them… Not gonna get them on the bus. But get them in the right seat. I have seen through meeting dozens of massage therapists that you can be a great technical massage therapist, but if your personality, the way you’re not with people fall flat, you will not have as much success as somebody that is only average or slightly above average in their technical skill, but have the type of report-building, that relationship-building, those… The type of people that you wanna bring into your practice, those type people that you want into any organization that you can establish… Well, and that’s absolutely true. And then there’s also the continuity side of the business, there’s a lot of people who have the revolving door, patient comes in, spins and leaves and never comes back out, or in the final situation, they come in the top of your funnel is a new customer, new patient they come back out the bottom of… Because there is no actual retention, right, if you can build these continuity plans in any business, it could be a service business or product business, local business, global business doesn’t really matter if you have a continuity plan or a recurring type plan that you can offer to the customers, well, now you don’t have to spend as much trying to acquire new customers, and the people that you are able to keep are gonna stay longer and probably have a higher chance of referral, so you’re gonna get that one-to-one referral opportunity. Do you see that in the corporate space being a similar model where you… The retention can be there if you offer a good service.


Yeah, so I know we did a lot of organizations with one of the Big Bang firms of Pittsburgh for a while, and what we found is, I would say close to 30% to 50% of those people, if we had four or five different therapists that could be responsible for that position. They were declined services or they would wait to receive their service if it meant working with their preferred client, but that is much lower than the 70% to 80% in a traditional business like massage therapy, where there might be four or five, 10, 15 therapists, but they almost always wanna see the same person or they have one person in a primary backup, and mostly that’s because of the length of service when you’re receiving a massage therapy treatment in a corporate environment, it’s 10 to 15 minutes when you’re receiving it in a spa setting, or in a medical massage, that can be anyone from half an hour or two… An hour and a half to two hours. And during that extra time, you’re doing so much report building, it takes much longer to kinda get that, Oh, I need this person, or it’s not worth it.


Yeah, yeah, and that’s the personality dependent practice, right, that last is that you talk about there is like, Hey, they’re actually coming from the personality, not just a service, so you can be average with a great personality or great rapport, now all of a sudden they’re buying you and not the service becomes a problem in itself, because now you can’t scale that if everybody wants to see Mary and Mary is not available, well, then Jim sitting over here and not sure what to do… Right, so that’s a huge problem.


So where do you see some other… Talk a little bit about some of the other business things and some of the other visions that you have going into the future, like what are you trying to do, what’s like a longer… Yeah, absolutely.


So at the end of the day, again, that life mottos, I want to be in positions where I can support people and being successful, and whenever you have a goal that is that broad, in that generic and you don’t have a job title to it, the word of positions that I can do. Is there infinite, right?


I remember being four years old and being determined that I wanted to be a teacher, and I went to college, I started my teaching degree and I got three semesters in, and I had an educational psychology course and instead taking a final, you got to do two hours of job shadowing, or… I’m sorry, two days of job shadowing, so I did that job share an English teacher, greatest experience of my life taught me, I’m never gonna teach in my life, being in a classroom model where people just often aren’t inspired, 16 out of 20 kids aren’t gonna care about Shakespeare, and there’s not much you can do about that. But if you adopt a philosophy of, I want to be an environment where I’m teaching people how to be more successful, you can do that in almost any field, almost in any HR position, any middle or upper management position, so what is the future having sort for me it really depends on what windows open up, that makes sense with my skill set, and because I’m pretty settled here geographically, because I’m of from the Ryan with things for a real estate model. What position, geographically close. End up making sense. Yeah, no, that’s a good point. Do you see yourself scaling more on the real estate side in this corporate Masai, you see you doing other things to kinda tie it all together, what do you think from a vocational standpoint that you’re gonna… Cosmetically in a covid-19 environment, I think a lot of people buy into the philosophy of, I need to pick one thing and I need to be the best at it, and when you do that, you create value, you create a world where you’re in disposable… I personally change the philosophy on its head, I think that it’s great to be able to demonstrate that you have the skills to dig deep, to be that scanner type, that multi-potential type that has the ability to go very, very deep in something, but if you can show an employer, if you can show a teammate in there, somebody that you’re working with, that you have that skill set, but you’re driven to do it in multiple areas, I can demonstrate that, Okay, this is where I need to pivot because of my local economy, this is where I need to pivot based on the skill sets, on the jobs that are available, on what makes sense for my personal happiness at the time, and I can go, Okay, let’s transition to the industrial space because they’re training and development opportunities, and industrial… But because I can prove that, hey, I became a master in the eSports space in a year, I can come into your organization, I can dig deep and I can go a master and that quickly, and whenever you develop that skill set, not ability to pivot, that ability to be flexible, I think you’re creating so much more value for you long-term in a work where you don’t know if your industry is gonna survive six months from now, we’re in a board right now, I’m a massage therapist, but it’s socially unacceptable to shake somebody’s hand.


Yeah, it’s a weird world. The mentality of people has changed a lot, I mean obviously, there’s the political side of it, and then there’s the background side of it, then there’s people’s economic side of it, like, Hey, we understand there’s a problem going on, there’s a lot of things going on the world… There’s some of these social adjusts issues, there’s always different things going on, but that the end of the day, everybody still needs to make money to pay the bills, that doesn’t change, there’s nobody out there and says, Hey, I couldn’t use more money or I don’t need more… Income or I don’t need… I don’t have to pay the bills. There’s just… I have not met anyone like that yet, so if there is they need to call us right now… Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Let us know how you do it, right? So everyone has that same value there, I think the difficult part is, how do you leverage other people’s time, other people’s money, other people’s skills, so that you can benefit from that whole system where the revenue can come in and it can drop down and ultimately cycle back around kind of like real estate. To take some money, you put it in, you get the property, you bring more revenue in the door, and then you just… I just keep going over and over again, so what is the biggest piece of advice that you can give for the people who are sitting here with the Oh shit moment like, Hey, covid, we thought it was gonna be a 30, 60, 90 day thing, and it turns out… We’re like six months.


We’re getting close to it. Right, so what do you think the people should do… That’s a hard question, and I think it really depends on an individual, I think you really need to ask yourself, one, what resources do you have available? If you have a college education, then you often have access to an academic advising office, you have access to a career development office that can give you a resource on job leads. I said, I spent almost three years answering these questions for students minus demands, the pandemic part of it. And the way I always frame it, if you kinda have three main factors, you have the location that you work, you have the salary that you want in relation to the estimates in the field, and you have your actual job title and job description.


What is it that you exactly wanna do, what job positions kind have tangentially that same amount of work there, but also have additional responsibilities, one, if you’re just getting into the workforce, or two, if you’re in a situation that’s heavily being affected by something like covid… No more than one of those three things are negotiable.


So if you are Hoven living in your state moving forward, you need to be okay with not having your exact job title and you have to be a very compromising income, if compromising income doesn’t make sense for you, then you probably need to consider Relocating and the pros and cons of that, and of course, that is not speculation, ’cause at the end of the day, you said it might be six months and it might be two years before life flips normal, we might have normal again by spring, it’s really, really hard to predict, but I think the flexibility and doing whatever you need to do to make your time are important, but asking yourself What are these needs of mine for a job and what are my ones, and if you’re in a desperate situation, making sure you can tell the difference. Yeah, and I think you ran… Have a great point there at the end, it’s a must-have versus nice to-have, what are the must taps in your life, and that that list is more than three or four things, it’s probably… It’s probably a nice to have or not. Requires a lot people… To your point, if you want the income, you gotta move to the right spot to get the incline wanna live in a certain spot, you might have to give up some income, you might have to give a job title or an opportunity or a corporate ladder, and I think now, the interesting part, I’ve met some people in the last couple of weeks. I live in Pittsburgh, the work for companies that are in New York. They work for companies that are in San Fran, so they got new Arista France salaries living in Pittsburgh.


So now it’s like one of the lowest cost living places in the United States are mid to low, right. Probably bottom 20% to 30% for Pittsburgh real estate, at least, right.Pretty affordable place to live. But if you’re working in first-hand brand companies and your companies taking those salaries that some of the highest paid places in the world, so it’s like you’re living like a king, if you’re doing those kind of jobs, I think it really anthems your point of like, Hey, now, before you had to choose an income versus location, now the world’s slowly pivoting and saying, Hey, if you have the right skills and you can deploy your value, we might actually be able to employ you without you being physically present depending on what your drives… Right at… So there’s a different opportunity that’s at stake now, and I think it’s really interesting to see it develop to wrap things up, if people want to chat with you, learn more about what you’re doing, I hear some of the stuff about real estate, what’s the best way for them to reach you?


Yeah, absolutely. Honestly, probably just connecting with me on this, probably the best way to do that at linkedin dot com in Richard’s app, I would probably be the best way to include that I’m sure Connor can create a link in the description or anything… Other than that, I think that’s really the best way, if you’re interested in a harsh therapy personally here for your small business from massage practice, is Richard passage therapy dot com. Feel free to check that out.


It’s a little bit data as my wife is getting increasingly excited about SEO, so she wanted to take the reins at mastering that we’re in a little bit of development there, but really… Yeah, reaching out on LinkedIn, I’d love to do so, I’d love to help introduce you to some connections, I’d love to learn more about what you’re doing, and I remember the first conversation… A conversation that you and I ever had Connor, we said, no.


How can I wanna find a way to create… To bring you value, and you… Applies, everyone I’ve ever met and yet I’ve ever talked to. There’s been a way for us to help each other and to bring value each other’s lives, we need to talk long enough to make it happen, to reach out and let’s make it happen. Yeah, no, absolutely, and I appreciate you coming on the show. You got a lot of insight in the real estate space, the health care space, kind of job coaching and mentorship there with everything that you’ve done, super valuable conversation, really appreciate that you brought all that to the table and for anyone who’s interested in definitely reach out on LinkedIn, that’s how we linked up the first time and how to phone call did the podcast. And this will be out in a couple of weeks. So thank you so much.


My pleasure.

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